Campaign for Liberty State Charters

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Comment by Mark Collins on March 16, 2009 at 6:10pm

I can't speak for Sandy dj but since when did you coopt the Founders View of America. I have done a great deal of study on the founders and, quite frankly, while they would agree with a lot of your views, your overall view of America might worry them.

Comment by Mark Collins on March 16, 2009 at 6:06pm

Clearly I flushed out the pro drug crowd "Brian".

Sandy, This was why I warned against using the "Personal Liberty" argument in the tobacco debate. Personal Liberty can be used to argue for anything from Narcotics to sex with minors. It is also used to defend child abuse and abortion. It's all a question of who's liberty you are concerned with.

It is the responsibility of the Government to fight the narcotics war because the drugs are shipped and sold across national borders and state lines. The fact that they are doing half heartedly is no excuse to stop. Drug use is also way down in America and Drug dependancy is down even more. That is a GOOD thing.

If my taxes are going to pay for the thousands of crack addicts who are too doped up to work and the pot addicts who are too high to want to work than it is my right to try to do away with those drugs. I would guess that before the 1930's crack, crystal meth, and other illegal drugs did not exist.

Comment by Donna Holt (dljholt) on March 16, 2009 at 6:06pm

For the record, Sandy, I am not here to twist arms or recruit anyone who doesn't share the founder's vision for America. If you find it so contrary to your views, no one is expecting you to stay and I seriously doubt you'll change the hearts and minds of anyone else in this group, nor will you divide us.

Perhaps you'll be more successful with you centrist agenda elsewhere. I noticed you also support the SCC agenda to over turn the 2008 convention and force Jeff Frederick out. Bob McDonnell, no doubt, would welcome you on his team.

Let me remind you that this site is privately owned, not owned by the party and we have been welcomed to create our group and we are here to identify and share our views with like-minded folks and encourage them to join us at the national level.

Comment by Mark Collins on March 16, 2009 at 5:58pm

Brian...it's not why France helped us that was the point. As a matter of fact it had nothing to do with the point. What France was doing was exercising a foreign policy that furthered their cause. They were also intervening in another countries war. Their intentions were irrelevent. My question was why did WE ask for and accept their help. Because we believed that for a noble cause it is good for one country to help another. Otherwise our founders were pretty hypocrytica.

Comment by Brian R Gentry on March 16, 2009 at 5:20pm

Of course. That's what leftist do. They base their arguments on feelings and emotions -- not rational thought.

Comment by Rick Michael on March 16, 2009 at 5:04pm

Sandy-I take offense to your statement that "you all have learned the powers of spin". I simply offered some insight and, if knowledge and discussion is not what you are looking for, I look upon your comments as a prime example of the direction our party could go. How could we intend to win a majority ever again if our thoughts and decisions are not based in knowledge and reason? However, seeing the number of comments that you have made on this board and many others, I would say that your view is very well represented on this forum and I would wager many others. It is just a shame that it is so divisive in a party that desperately needs to come together.

Comment by Brian R Gentry on March 16, 2009 at 4:55pm

Don't have much time, but will make a couple of quick comments before I go home for the day.

re: French help during the American Revolution:

France didn't enter the war to help our "freedom" or "liberty." They entered the war to weaken the British Empire -- not to make America free.

France was ruled by a Monarch then so it would have been stupid for them to support our “natural rights” philosophy. They didn’t come to our aid b/c they were nice. They came to our aid b/c it benefited them.

Furthermore, if we have a responsibility to help others gain their "freedom" overseas, then shouldn't we have turned around and helped the French during the French Revolution? But we didn't....

Re: Libertarians being hippies for being "anti-war."

Good ole Republican Bob Dole didn't like those "Democrat wars" either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G9AePwl1AE

re: the federal war on drugs:

1.) The constitution doesn't give the federal government any authority to regulate drugs. It should be totally up to the states. Therefore, if you support the federal government getting involved, then you must first amend the constitution.

2.) "Relegalize" would be a better term since there weren't federal drug laws until the 1930s. But I don't recall stories about little kids purchasing dime bags of dope at the store -- even though it was readily available.

But on that point, we're currently spending billions and billions of dollars to regulate drugs, and I could easily find whatever type of drug I wanted right now (of course I don't do drugs, but if I did, they're easily available). That means your stupid war on drugs is a FAILURE!!

3.) We're not advocating drug use. Just because I believe that each individual has the right to do with themselves as they please, so long as they don’t violate anothers' person or property, doesn’t mean that I advocate immoral behavior.

But the fact is, no mere human has the right to force someone to be moral, because through the use of force, their well-intentioned desire to eradicate immorality would be an immoral act in and of itself.

In a free society, government doesn’t have to impose a punishment for immoral behavior. Immoral behavior, by its very nature, has negative consequences, and moral behavior, by its nature, has positive consequences.

We’re never going to have a perfect society, so the best alternative is to leave each individual up to their own device, and those who choose to live immoral lives will have to suffer the negative consequences that are a result of whatever immoral activity they engage in.

And the main question is "who owns me?" Does Brian Gentry own Brian Gentry or does the federal government own Brian Gentry?

4.) To support the drug war means that you have to also support a federal ban on alcohol and tobacco. I can make the same arguments for their prohibition that you make for marijuana and other "drugs." Therefore, if you don't support a federal ban on alcohol and tobacco, you're not logically consistent.

5.) Time to go for a run and then go "infiltrate" those young Republicans with my radical libertarian views...hhoooooohahaaaaaaa

Comment by Rod on March 16, 2009 at 4:51pm

I'm very hopeful about Libertarians and the campaign for Liberty. I had always thought of myself as REpublican ever since I was in high school and the campaign of Barry Goldwater. Somehow the party has changed in recent years with "Republicans" vying for a place at the spending trough. Would Barry Goldwater have got us into Iraque? I very much doupt it. Speaking of World 2 , have any read Buchanon's "Unessicary War?" In it he shows the loss to England of her empire and the West loosing and are still continuing to loose. I don't know what will be left when we "win" the current war if indeed we do. I can understand Libertarians looking at the Republican party and visa versa. We need in Fairfaxcounty all Republicans to go out and knock on doors so we can win more seats likd we just did on the board of Supervisors.

Comment by Donna Holt (dljholt) on March 16, 2009 at 4:35pm

Mark,

First of all, I am not a Libertarian, I am a Republican and this discussion is not about Libertarian vs. Republican. I have some very fundamental beliefs that are not in line with Libertarians. For starters I am pro-life and I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

A non-interventionist foreign policy doesn't mean you don't come to the defense of an ally. That's not what we did when we lead the charge into Iraq. What did we go into Iraq in defense of? We weren't threatened by Iraq nor was any of our allies when we went in.

I have no problem with defensive spending within our means but do we really need 300 military bases in 130 countries most of which are not under attack and have their own defense? How is that conservative? Meanwhile we have our own borders wide open with a constant stream of illegal aliens coming into this country, draining our resources and bankrupting us. Then there are the 35 known terrorist camps in the U.S our government says they cannot do anything about out of concern over violating their rights? Give me a break! http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=185279&page=1

If this doesn't open your eyes nothing will !

1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County )

(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California ,Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. ?29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

This is just one state. We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.

By the way, most of the drugs that come into this country come across the Mexican border.

Comment by Sandy Cope on March 16, 2009 at 4:34pm

Rick- Your comment, though lengthy, says nothing more than any other reply by the CFLers commenting here. You all have learned the powers of spin. You talk about the thousands killed in Iraq by the Americans, yet you forget the number of Iraquis killed by sectarian violence. You have also conviently forgotten about the thousands and thousands of innocent Iraquis Hussein had killed because they didn't agree with his dictatorship. What about the torture chanbers he had, what about the people he gassed and had injured and killed with chemicals- Do you remember Chemical Ali by chance?

As Mark said in a comment below, you only hold to your own personal shallow beliefs, and God Forbid any of you were called upon to protect the US and her freedoms with your blood. You'd more likely offer the terriorist a joint!

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